Comments on: SRS-less Learning /srs-less-learning/ You don't know a language, you live it. You don't learn a language, you get used to it. Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:09:19 +0900 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.1.13 By: H4 /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000144780 Wed, 04 Jun 2014 06:51:40 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000144780 I hated Anki when I started learning: it looked so basic and boring. And the 10000 sentences method looked like hard work to just find my learning material! 2 things changed my mind: I started using Anki to scramble my kanji just to prompt me to write them down; I found a deck someone had made from Death Note. Then I started finding text dumps online from games I wanted to play (still can’t find Persona 2 though) and mined sentences from that. And I found an add on that can make flashcards out of subtitles and audio from videos (need to try that out).

]]>
By: christina /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000128287 Thu, 29 May 2014 03:18:14 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000128287 I so agree with this post. I don’t think SRS is for me. Yes, it helps me remember a lot of vocabulary, but at the same time its so boring it makes me not want to review anything lol. SRS is maybe good when I have absolutely nothing to do and I’m feeling in the mood to do it, which is once in a while, but not every day.. Reading has been more effective more me I think. Although there is less vocabulary learn, I enjoy it more.

]]>
By: Rob /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000066841 Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:23:05 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000066841 Funny, I said pretty much the same thing as this guy did in a comment on January 17, 2009 on this site. Ironically though, I love using an SRS now more than ever. I use it every day for not only mine, but my kids education as well. Ebbinghaus might not have been right on the money with his curve, but even if he were relatively close, it would be hard to argue against the benefits of spaced repetition.

]]>
By: gunner /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000065128 Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:01:51 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000065128 Eh…it really just depends on the person. I’m only using Anki for Kanji at this point after being so stuck on it for so many months and I just hate it now. I quit reviewing sentence cards a little after a month of starting and I find the reviews overall to be so dry and boring. It’s simply counter-intuitive to how I learn. I don’t want to build and review cards constantly or mind-numblingly sift through hundreds of out-of-context sentences. It just doesn’t work for me. I find it far more rewarding to just practice speaking, watching shows and anime raw without subtitles, and reading whenever I can. By doing that, I’m doing what the natives are doing, I learn at a much faster pace, and it’s just more fun this way. As for more complex expressions like your examples, I find expressions I hear and then shadow become much more natural and easier for me to use than if I were to just have it drilled into my head with cards. SRS-ing just isn’t for everybody and I can understand how Chuck feels when you bump into SRS elitists who think it’s the most efficient way to learning a language and anything else you’re doing is “inefficient” or wrong. At the end of the day, SRS is only one of the many ways to supplement immersion learning and a spaced-repetition environment can easily be recreated without its usage since it’s just how we naturally learn anyway. Overall, SRS isn’t for everybody. Just my two cents.

Oh, and books will always be more portable than iPhones. You never have to charge them and they’re a lot cheaper too 😉

]]>
By: TheRealCZ /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000009829 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:20:33 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000009829 RT @ajatt: Ultimately, what matters is that you have some delicious rice to eat, not how you cooked it.
t.co/Qw6P8rWNOy #SRS

]]>
By: LinguisticsGuru /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008445 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:56:07 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008445 SRS-less Learning t.co/m5ASSNhdRy

]]>
By: Livonor /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008341 Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:35:28 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008341 Lolz, I thought that SRS was rice and beans, now it’s being more polemic than creatine and marijuana. I always used Anki, and I’m currently learning +60 words a day with almost no effort despite having just 1 “free hour” per day. I really can’t understand why this guy was so frustrated while learning just 30 sentences, I usually just spend the weekend popping random sentences with random amount of new words while reading random stuff and learn those sentences in the 5 other days of the week

]]>
By: Jim /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008333 Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:11:05 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008333 I can relate so much to this post :O, I’ve also dropped SRS recently. Thank you Khatz for sharing and thank you Chuck Z for writing this.

]]>
By: El /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008318 Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:51:00 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008318 Why I think including SRS is more efficient than using a method that is SRS-less:

1) You can’t always lug a book around. But you can always lug your iPhone around.

2) Today I was watching Back to the Future with my friends, and interpersed that with some reviews. Try reading when Back to the Future is on. This helps you to stay consisten to the principle of always exposing yourself to the language and maintaining momentum for active, more intensive study.

3) My brain is not always primed to read a book. It takes concentration to read a book and look up words in the dictionary. With SRS, it is just a simple of game of saying the sentence, and then intuiting its meaning. Well it’s simple, but it is still a deep practise of “getting physically used to the language”. That is, it is through this simple, not only do I work out my mouth muscles to get used to smoothly saying things in Japanese (and Hebrew, which I am learning alongside Japanese–I am fluent (not native level thoughー-and I would say I am in the first rung of fluency. I still find it difficult to understand some animes like Hellsing Ultimate (which uses a lot of 専門用語 from the military) in Japanese so I figure what the heck, I’ll learn another language while my momentum in studying Japanese is unstoppable at the moment), recognizing Japanese with my eyes, and even hearing it (albeit imperfectly–I do not have near native fluency in Japanese yet!) and practising recognition of the sounds of my target language as I sound out sentences after sentences.

I do this with my reading sessions (that is I sound out sentences as I read), but it is definitely a different kind of monster, as reading requires a lot of concentration. It does not have that same kind of simplicity that SRS reviews have that allow for deep practise of getting used to languages physically (this is an idea I built off Khatz’s idea of getting used to languages).

4) The importance of dead time: a lot of my studying Japanese/Hebrew gets done during the “dead times”. That is, when I am sitting on the train, when I get the runs and have to sit on the toilet, when I am waiting in the line at H and M to buy something, when I am walking to work. You cannot always crack open and a book and walk and concentrate and look up things in your dictionary. Anki and iPhone absolutely changes the game. You just pop up your iPhone, rock out anki, and rock out 20-30 reviews and time box for 5 minutes (I actually rocked out 10 minutes while I was in the can today..had the runs. It was prolly the past I ate). The principle is to get used to your target language physically, and you want this to be as simple, winnable, and frequent if you are striving for longevity and efficiency in your studies.

5) SRS is simply a net, and sentences/expressions/words are just fishes that you dont want to lose. There are some words and expressions that you will never come across again. For example, you will be hard pressed to find an expression like 付和雷同(following blindly). But with a couple of reviews (with visual–by visual I mean cards that have pictures to associate the expression with an indelible image–aids and dialogical aids to help contextualize the expression and to also give a rough feeling of how to use the expression in the appropriate situation), that expression will stick forever. 付和雷同 is now in my head. Another expression that I can memorize now is this: 元選手は走っている車のドアを開けて道路の上に転がり出る。Too many goodies in this sentence. If I didnt lock this into my brain, I would have said something undescriptive/awkward like 元選手は車のドアをあけて道に落ちた。But since cloze deleting every word in that goodie sentence above, I don’t need to make awkward sentences. I seriously lock that in my brain. Another good one is: 従来であればなくなっていたはずの患者さんは蘇生するようになった。No way will you be able to remember that kind of sentence …because you will never see that again, even if you read a million kajillion books. There are grammatical tricks in that sentence that textbooks or reading normal Japanese sentences will never teach you. This can only be done through the SRS…and the more you do this kind of practise, the more you get familiar with even more complex grammar that you find in Japanese books.

In the end, we do not have the luxury to do everything in your target language. Face it, you have to work in English, you have to talk to your friends in English, you have to study in English. Japanese native speakers did literally EVERYTHING in Japanese. Talking to their parents, reading manga, watching cartoons, talking to their friends, doing social studies in Japanese, doing Karate in Japanese, using Japanese at work, etc. So naturally an expression like 付和雷同 or Kenichiro Mogi can make a sentence like 元選手は走っている車のドアを開けて道路の上に転がり出る. Sheer exposure and practise for the mouth, ears, eyes and the rest of the body (gestures). They naturally remember words and expressions through their environment (which is more superior to ours for language learning). You need to admit that you do not have that luxury even if you listen to Japanese music, have your OS in Japanese, ahve your facebook in japanese, have yoru iphone to Japanese, watch anime everyday, read Japanese books everyday, and even write a Japanese blog. Its not even half of what they have. SRS mixed with immersion and the momentum that is generated by immersion is the only way to get close to their level.

]]>
By: 魔法少女☆かなたん /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008244 Sun, 14 Apr 2013 06:19:02 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008244 I like using SRS flashcards because I know I’ll be getting reading material I mostly understand and can “win” in a few seconds. That feels good and lets me keep a little bit of what I’ve seen before. However, it’s not worth investing too much time into building, and may not even be good for some personality types. Definitely worth trying though.

This brings me to a thought I had. I’ve committed a certain act of sacrilege by not using Saint Heisig’s Ultimate Method of Kanji, instead learning in a more … ah, inefficient order. I turned out just fine, of course, and enjoyed it quite a bit. But the point is that I think Anglo-American culture in particular is so focused on visible efficiency that inefficient processes are derided, even when they lead to long-term results. For example, employees who spend some of their time on the job talking instead of working are on average more productive then those who just work, but just talking is discouraged. Probably because of that Protestant sadomasochism…er…work ethic.

The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that inefficiency, for lack of a better word, is good. Inefficiency is right. Inefficiency works. Inefficiency clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

]]>
By: b4d0m3n /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008211 Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:19:46 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008211 Oh, for sure I can see this being frustrating in Korean after a while. I am beginning to take my Korean journey seriously at the moment, but I could see this system being a hindrance at Intermediate levels of learning. I would say it is still the best method for learning Kanji. Once you get to a stage when you can comfortably browse a website or read a comic, you’re picking up those words automatically.

]]>
By: alley_oop /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000008164 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:52:10 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000008164 RT @ajatt: Ultimately, what matters is that you have some delicious rice to eat, not how you cooked it.
t.co/Qw6P8rWNOy #SRS

]]>
By: Cai /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007976 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 04:33:31 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007976 This is really good.

Now that I’m upper intermediate level, finding and adding enough sentences to make significant progress takes too long, and it’s also like a chore.

I’ve been vaguely thinking about it already. Now I’m certain that I’m going to switch my focus to reading manga and stuff like that.

]]>
By: Doug /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007971 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 04:09:08 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007971 Correction: ” I spent too much time on SRS reps and not enough on reading things I liked. “. :-p

]]>
By: Doug /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007964 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:38:36 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007964 Great article. I’ve been getting in a rut with Anki SRS as well when it’s a language I’m more familiar with too.

I can read Japanese well enough now to enjoy comics and the occasional book so Anki now is a hindrance for me. I spent too much time on SRS reps and not enough on making and reviewing cards.

One the other hand I’m learning Korean and Latin as “dabbling” languages. Anki is still useful for me to learn the basics. At some point I probably “graduate” from SRS university someday. 😉

]]>
By: jphiled /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007981 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:29:32 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007981 RT @ajatt: “…this discarding of methods is really what makes me advance faster” t.co/vGsFpx3mN8

]]>
By: Landorien /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007929 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:06:36 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007929 SRS-less Learning | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time t.co/1fh6MwomqB (via Instapaper)

]]>
By: ajatt /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007930 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:58:02 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007930 Ultimately, what matters is that you have some delicious rice to eat, not how you cooked it.
t.co/Qw6P8rWNOy #SRS

]]>
By: ajatt /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007931 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:39:33 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007931 “…in my case, I SRSed throughout the day while maintaining the immersive environment.” t.co/Qw6P8rWNOy

]]>
By: ajatt /srs-less-learning/#comment-1000007932 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:36:39 +0000 /?p=23628#comment-1000007932 “…this discarding of methods is really what makes me advance faster” t.co/vGsFpx3mN8

]]>