Comments on: Grammar Does Not Exist /there-is-no-grammar/ You don't know a language, you live it. You don't learn a language, you get used to it. Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:09:19 +0900 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.1.13 By: There is no grammar (as we know it). | undeadlinguist /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-1000262394 Wed, 16 Jul 2014 15:44:57 +0000 /?p=361#comment-1000262394 […] “You don’t need to know what the rules are, you just need to obey them. Don’t memorize the penal codes, just stop killing people.” – Khatzumoto […]

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By: There is no grammar. | catocollective /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-1000240962 Tue, 08 Jul 2014 21:13:01 +0000 /?p=361#comment-1000240962 […] “You don’t need to know what the rules are, you just need to obey them. Don’t memorize the penal codes, just stop killing people.” – Khatzumoto […]

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By: Dos and Donts of learning Japanese | Jon Ken Po /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-1000059033 Tue, 24 Sep 2013 23:07:55 +0000 /?p=361#comment-1000059033 […] Don’t Focus on studying grammar (at least at the beginning) […]

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By: If Anime Is Bad For Your Japanese, Then Nursery Rhymes Are Bad For Your English | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-1000056023 Sun, 18 Aug 2013 15:37:05 +0000 /?p=361#comment-1000056023 […] You are capable of implicit learning. Yes, even from books. You are capable of unconsciously internalizing the context and appropriateness of the words you hear and see. You can tell just by the situation and tone of voice what phrases connote — often enough, you can even tell the entire meaning. You are smart in a way that computers aren’t. What you lack in linear, machine intelligence yo… […]

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By: Japanese Sentences (Core 6k) | Jon Ken Po /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-1000055134 Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:41:39 +0000 /?p=361#comment-1000055134 […] how grammar works rather then study all of the rules and try to apply them.  There has been much written about this, so don’t take my word for it.  If I have a few extra minutes free after studying […]

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By: Oosaka Ayumu /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-305271 Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:31:22 +0000 /?p=361#comment-305271 The problem is that you have a major in linguistic and you that. A lot of people don’t know it and keep to use the “grammar book” or the “exercise book” as the only source of knowledge. Another problem is the why you are studying the language:
if you only love the country culture, you can think grammar is useless.
if you love the country language more and you want to study it, you need grammar. That’s all folks. ^^ No, I mean.

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By: Kakipii /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-203091 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:30:48 +0000 /?p=361#comment-203091 It’s a fixed expression. I always thought it was imitating ungrammatical Chinese speakers of English, but just looked it up on Wikipedia and see it could be from Native American Pidgin.
Anyway, although it’s a great example of a phrase that is ungrammatical, that is its point – it was originally used by non-native speakers. Native speakers wouldn’t use LENGTH OF TIME + NO + VERB (BASE FORM) in other constructions (“Two days no study” or “Long period no work”).
I agree with the general point of this thread, though. If you learn Japanese using a grammatical syllabus (either from a class textbook or in your own self-study) you’re going to end up speaking horrible disjointed Japanese, as I do. A small percentage of people will learn no matter what, but most need a variety of input and practice opportunities.
 

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By: Avery /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-172334 Mon, 05 Dec 2011 03:46:18 +0000 /?p=361#comment-172334 Grammar believers, please diagram the English sentence “long time no see”.

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By: Endl /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-149124 Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:06:50 +0000 /?p=361#comment-149124 I’m another linguistics major. The way you describe linguistics, it seems like you’ve never really looked at how linguists actually conduct research nowadays. Nowadays, Chomsky is out and statistical analysis is in, because we understand that language is not a hard and fast set of rules but a distribution of patterns. When we assign categories we understand these to be generalizations and descriptors, not a set in stone thing. 

You called “al-” a *phoneme* for crissakes, when it’s a definite article. It functions largely similarly to “the” and other definite articles, so it’s safe to call it that. Wikipedia even talks about its use:

ذكري: when the word being referred to has already been mentioned. An example is found in the word messenger in “We had sent to Pharaoh a messenger. But Pharaoh disobeyed the messenger…” (Qur’an 73:15-6).
ذهني: when the word being referred to is understood by the listener. An example is found in the word battle in “The battle is getting worse; I think we should retreat.”

To call it it’s own magical thing we can’t know doesn’t help us understand how it works in then language at all. Yes, there are other grammatical rules that affect its use, but what it basically does is understood and should not be ignored in favor of mysticalizing it as the unknown. If our linguistic capacity can handle it, certainly our intellectual one can.

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By: Ian Long /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-133509 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 03:16:50 +0000 /?p=361#comment-133509 This is compleatly correct.  In fact, what we think of as Engish grammar, is just one set of grammar rules.  It is actually called Traditional grammar, and was designed by linguists to describe language.  It was never intended to be used for language instruction, and is basically not suited to that use at all.  There are various other grammars floating about, but sadly everyone gets forced to use Traditional English grammar.

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By: Santiago Madrigal /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-116662 Thu, 14 Jul 2011 01:13:53 +0000 /?p=361#comment-116662 This! In the name of everything that is sacred, THIS!!! 😀

Excellent way to put it Relja, I totally agree with you. True grammar is not the same as it’s abstraction (boring grammar), true-natural grammar is almost like a physical skill, something that you feel and live, something that just becomes part of you after being exposed to a language after obscene amounts of time.

… why didn’t I thought about it earlier? I’m jealous xD

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By: Areckx /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-99929 Thu, 26 May 2011 19:50:27 +0000 /?p=361#comment-99929 I like the part about studying grammar IN THE TARGET LANGUAGE.

I read hundreds of books in English before I finally got to high school English grammar drills. It was boring, and I liked it because I had all of the information already stored in the back of my head. The lessons further solidified my English into the back of my brain so I could continue reading and using English without even thinking about it.

This is where I plan to be with my Japanese, after I’ve read enough, after I’ve got my feet wet with a few hundred books. With a few hundred thousand sentences. With a few million kanji pairings…

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By: salem /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-84444 Sat, 05 Mar 2011 10:47:56 +0000 /?p=361#comment-84444 To be quite frank, I have major issues with even the formalized, taxonomic grammar studied in ivory towers. It operates on an information poor, myopic view of language — this idea that the patterns that shape sentences can be formalized into cross-lingual structures. The reason linguists rarely try to taxonomize colloquial language (beyond describing new phenomena after the fact) is probably because it’s impossible: language is not like a set of beetle species; it’s too unique, too simple and at the same time too vastly incomprehensible to the human mind to reduce to baser elements. I’m with Walker Percy when he said he was amused at the scientific community’s attempt to find if animals can talk, if aliens exist that can talk, etc., all the while forgetting the sheer bizarreness of man’s own lingual capacity.

Much of what passes for descriptive grammar in the .pdfs of academia isn’t even true. Arabic is not a “VSO” (or any particular word order for that matter) language: to squish and jam its stiff gelatin mass into the square hole that is the “VSO” paradigm, you have to basically find sentences that fit your preconception of the language. (The Wikipedia article on “VSO” even tacitly admits that few languages express this pattern with any predictable regularity). The “definite article” doesn’t work the same in all languages. In Arabic, “al-” is not really at all equivalent to “the”; it has its own meaning that’s impossible to translate into or describe in English without writing about 5,000 words on the subject (and even then you wouldn’t get the spirit of the phoneme).

This is not to toss our hands up and say that language is unknowable, that we should never seek to describe language in a scientific way. But a drastic change in scope is desperately required: we cannot continue studying language as though it were a kind of Sumerian ceramic style, because studying language is really to study ourselves. And just try to compress the full breadth of humanity into a few rules and descriptions.

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By: Richard /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-60639 Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:17:06 +0000 /?p=361#comment-60639 日本語はどうですか。

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By: Emp /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-59218 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 03:14:19 +0000 /?p=361#comment-59218 Abstractions (grammar is one) have the most predictive power (provided they are good abstractions) in situations that are regular, sensible, reasonable, etc. Like science or math. Before Copernicus people were describing star movement in these insanely complicated ways that included terms like “retrograde” and were a pain to deal with. But then someone was able to see to the simple truth behind all that carp, that the model was wrong and when you shift to the more accurate one things get sweet and simple.

Since then (or before then, since that’s just a well-known example), pretty much any time that the explanations ended up getting really cumbersome when trying to account for WHAT REALLY HAPPENS, inevitably would come a new epiphany that makes things simpler again if we only look at them in a different way. So yay. Happiness for science and especially the pure and theoretical world that is math.

Abstractions work great for anything that can be boiled down to something simple. Unfortunately languages cannot, thanks to the randomness of humanity. Even most of our deliberately created languages (C++ eh?) have inconsistencies in them, from some new change being applied only partially, because there was a critical point for laziness, or it just seemed weird in some situations. Humans do like order well enough, so they don’t go deliberately making things random and chaotic when determining WHAT REALLY HAPPENS in languages, but are bound by such semi-relevant factors as “this is awkward to pronounce” and “I’m too lazy to say the whole word so I’ll just use part,” which are all in some way related to convenience. (Plus where languages are widespread we have these changes going on in parallel and get dialects).

Humans like convenience better than order. Therefore language (something we use a lot and therefore want to be as lazy as possible with) grows more for the sake of convenience than for the simplistic beauty of pure order. All we “native” speakers know what we mean well enough, so it works for us. Sure, it might be easier to learn for other people if it acted in a way that made sense all the time, but that would take more work on our part, and en masse. Not gonna happen. (Especially in languages that are the bastard children of other languages, like English. Anyone who learned English first should know better. Why then are some of the most strict “grammarists” english-speaking? I blame British Imperial mentality.)

So any attempt to describe the human creation of language as if it were as sensible as objects obeying physics is pretty silly. On a high level we can get it to work, and it can indeed be very useful. It will point us in the general right direction and set up a basic intuition for how things work. But if we try to force it to accomodate the nitty gritty of all individual cases we set ourselves up for frustration and way more work than any insight from it is worth. Because unlike science, no real language has beautiful, underlying universal truths. Just vague generalities.

So I find grammar useful as long as I stay at the vague level of “it works sorta like that, eh?”

To summarize the summary of the summary: Laziness is more powerful than logic.

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By: タック /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-57018 Tue, 05 Oct 2010 13:57:17 +0000 /?p=361#comment-57018 If grammar rules really existed translator programs would be perfect. ね

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By: Jonathan /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-53323 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:12:20 +0000 /?p=361#comment-53323 For me, the best part about this post is the fact that 「行く」 is actually irregular; if it obeyed the “rules” of Japanese grammar, its past tense form would be 「行いた」. So in a way, this random, simple example actually proves its own case rather elegantly. 🙂

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By: wasabwack /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-52981 Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:29:59 +0000 /?p=361#comment-52981 Thank you for helping me reach enlightenment.
THERE IS NO SPOON!

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By: Grammar Does Not Exist « zlJapanese /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-52980 Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:27:59 +0000 /?p=361#comment-52980 […] Thanks Khatz. […]

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By: Grammar’s Dead. Yay? « Japanese On A Dime /there-is-no-grammar/#comment-50027 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:35:26 +0000 /?p=361#comment-50027 […] like to think I don’t usually jump on the bandwagon with my posts, but I really want to chime in […]

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